The first question is: “Why would a perfect God create an imperfect universe?” The full question and reader comments can be found here. Tony Jones’ response – God is not “perfect” – is here.
Tony’s response was basically along the lines of “perfection is a quality we get from Plato, not scripture.” While many Christians embrace the platonic concept, he argues “Perfection is a purely imaginary state. It doesn't exist.”
“I don’t find any indication from either the Hebrew or Christian scriptures that perfection was a quality that ancient Jews or early Christians attributed to Yahweh or to God.” Click here to read the full reply.
Several of the reader comments to the original post follow that same line of thinking:
Perfect, in the evangelical sense of being “sinless,” perfect in the Hebrew actually means "complete".
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Creation by its very nature is on-going, both a noun and a verb. So, in a sense it can never be complete. However, the God of Genesis said it is Good- not Perfect.
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All things have a purpose toward "completion". Perhaps the question is what is our purpose in that.
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Imperfection is woven inextricably into the very being and functioning of Creation. We could live without imperfection. We would not be here (at least in this universe) were it not for imperfection.
I’d like to ask the question differently. If God created us in God’s image and intended for us to live in a relationship with God, why can’t we see and interact directly with God? We’re told that nobody can see God and live (Exodus 33:17-23). From Moses and the Prophets to Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we’ve needed an intermediary.
But why do we need an intermediary? Why would God create something with which God cannot interact directly? Why is it so hard for so many people to even recognize God at work on earth? Is it because we’re so imperfect and/or sinful/unholy that we’d perish in the presence of God? That seems to go back to the original question and opens up a lot of messy implications (see the post Are we totally depraved?). Is it because we are not yet complete (in some manner) and can’t fully comprehend God? That might explain why the first disciples could spent their daily lives with Jesus but didn't fully understand who he was until after the resurrection.
Here’s an idea that has bounced around in my head for a few years. I’m not sure if I buy it, but I’ll toss it out. Maybe we can’t fully comprehend (or see) God because we don’t exist in the same dimension as God does. Bear with me for a minute. The idea was inspired by a book called Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions, written by Edwin Abbott, an English schoolmaster and theologian. The book, a satire of Victorian culture, describes a two-dimensional world that is visited by a three-dimensional sphere. The two-dimensional creatures can’t comprehend the sphere until they see it in three-dimensional space. Those who don’t experience it not only deny the existence of a three-dimension space, but forbid anyone from talking about it. It’s beyond their comprehension that anything can exist outside of what they can see and know.
What if we can’t fully comprehend or directly interact with God because God exists in a dimension beyond ours? What if, for instance, God exists in a dimension in which time is not linear? Much like the two-dimensional characters in Flatland, we can only experience that portion of God we encounter in our particular slice of time. It might explain why we find different aspects of God emphasized in scripture passages that span time. Following on last week’s discussion, it might also explain how different cultures that developed in different times and locations could end up with different but complementary experiences with God to share. Or it may be none of that, except for my imagination, and all I've done is create confusion.
So back to the original question: Tony Jones concludes his answer by saying perfection is not something Christianity promises. Instead,
Christianity promises a narrative that meshes with our experience — and my experience of life is rife with inconsistency and paradox. What Christianity offers me is a vision of God that more or less matches my experience of life.
Do you agree with Tony’s response? Is there anything you’d add? Why do you think we can’t (or don’t) directly encounter God in our lives?
The Perfect World?
ReplyDeletePerfection is defined by who??? I think we should start with GOD as perfection and work from there.
We can’t begin to imagine what God has in store for use when He allows things to happen in a seemingly imperfect way from our perspective. What happened in the Garden of Eden? God made this seemingly perfect couple, but ultimately they were flawed – but were they? Why did God put the snake in the Garden, if not to tempt the couple into sinning? Maybe this was part of God’s plan to test the new humans that he just put on this perfect earth to live on. Yes. This is a perfect Earth. The Earth has a perfect orbit around the Sun, has a perfect oxygen mixture, the perfect amount of water. GOD is a perfect provider and it is up to us to use these things that God provides to try to create a Heaven on Earth.
I agree with Joe. The creation is pretty amazing. It's incredible that it's complexity is built on relatively simple physical laws that we as humans have come to understand to some degree. Maybe God is speaking to us through His creation and in our learning about it.
ReplyDeleteJoe's comment about the snake in the Garden raises questions. Are the Genesis accounts of creation literally true? Does it matter whether they are or are not?
Maybe your questions about whether the creation accounts are literally true and whether it matters should be our next question of the week.
DeleteI think that as an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, powerful Personal Creator, God certainly exists outside space and time. I guess that you could call that another dimension if you want to. It always impresses me that in the Bible God refuses to be named. Maybe that’s because he is so incredibly unlike us.
ReplyDeleteAs to the question of if it’s a perfect universe, I’d say that if we were as smart, as perceptive, etc. as God, then we’d be in a position to judge if it were perfect. However, we’re not as smart, etc. so we’re in no position to judge. Also, we have to ask the question of if the universe is perfect to what end? If an imperfect creation results in a perfect end, and a God outside space and time can know the end, then is it really imperfect?
I agree that perfect has too much partial baggage. Each of us has our own concept of what that means and we probably run into trouble when we try to live up to that concept... and, even worse, when we try to get others to measure up to our ideal.
ReplyDeleteOne of the big blessings I got out of reading the Bible all the way through those times we did it at Grace is that it became more obvious to me that the Bible was not primarily a dispenser of laws or codes of moral conduct but was an ongoing account of God's relationship with us. If perfection was an ideal we were expected to live up to, then (it seems to me) the Bible would be filled with a whole bunch of practically perfect people. And, of course, it isn't. So maybe we should be looking at what the Bible tells us about God's relationship with all of us normally flawed people.
While I still wonder why God would intend for us to be in relationship (communion, whatever term you prefer) with God and have it be so it seems difficult or impossible for us to directly encounter God, but maybe that's not the question. Maybe, instead, the question is HOW do we interact with this Creator that, despite existing outside our space and time, wants to interact with us? And, if I go back to the Bible for clues on that, then it's there in Jesus' teachings and his interactions with those around him: Love. Love God (and, by extension, all that God has created) with everything we have. Love our neighbors (which, by example, Jesus showed us as EVERYBODY and not just those who are like us) as ourselves. Love one another. And, in my own personal experience, when I've been immersed in loving others (which goes beyond helping out others in need to also listening to their stories and valuing them as God's children) I feel that connection to God.