Read: Question #15, p. 59-62, in Banned Questions about the Bible by Christian Piatt.
Scripture Passages: Exodus 21:12-27; Leviticus 24:10-23; Matthew 5:17-48; Matthew 22:37-40; Luke 10:25-37
The responses to this question in Banned Questions… cover a number of points worth reading. For now, I want to consider this in context with the previous question on whether the Bible justifies violence and retaliation. If we take the Bible as God’s unadulterated word, some passages are hard to sort out. Not only do the Israelites wipe out whole towns in order to move into the Promised Land, but that’s what God directed them to do so that they would not be corrupted by the “detestable things” the Canaanites did. And if we think God had qualms about wiping out whole tribes of people because of their evil ways, that’s exactly what God did with the flood.
If we consider that, rather than God’s dictated word, the Bible is a joint effort between God and people, then we can see these passages reflecting both the perception and the struggle of the people who were trying to understand their relationship with God. This is the perspective you see in many of the people who respond in Banned Questions….
But Dave Retherford also made an observation worth considering: “If you think of God as a father, it makes sense that a father allows or even directs some suffering to teach children a lesson or bring about a greater good.” The Old Testament has plenty of accounts of God’s people struggling with how to relate to God and to those around them. Further, as Dave noted, what happened in the Old Testament set the stage for everything in the New Testament, leading to the restoration of God’s kingdom.
Which leads us to Jesus. As followers of Christ, we’re looking at the Old Testament – violence, laws, disobedience and all – through the lens of the Gospel. One of the reasons I struggle with some of those passages is that they run counter to all I’ve learned about God through Jesus. John 3:16-17 is about loving redemption. Follow Jesus through the gospels. He doesn’t spend time condemning others. In fact, he reaches out to the very people who struggled with being human and were often condemned by a religious establishment that claimed to know the intent of God’s commandments (and had their own set of rules for following them).
Jesus turned that teaching upside down in his Sermon on the Mount. But did Jesus void some of the Old Testament laws? That’s a common perception I hear. Jesus also said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Matt. 5:17]
How does Jesus’ teaching on vengeance (turning the other cheek rather than responding eye-for-an-eye) and on loving our enemy fulfill the Old Testament laws and prophets? If this is God’s intent, why not start there? For one thing, not only was Jesus’ teaching revolutionary for his day, it still is today. Kathy Escobar noted that “the kingdom principles that Jesus taught were going to be much harder to apply than the old laws by a long shot” [p. 61 in Banned Questions…]. Do you agree with that?
We live in a society that doesn’t exactly embrace forgiving and turning the other cheek. And it’s not always easy to love your enemies when they seem intent on bringing you down. How do we live out these teachings?
That leads to one last comment I want to discuss. Jarrod McKenna asks: “Why is it that people can’t find the hope of the world in our churches?” [p. 60 in Banned Questions…]. He says it’s because we’re not letting God’s love flow through us in loving our enemies, in being merciful and graceful. Do you agree?
Our youth group this year will be learning more about Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and what it means to live as Jesus calls us in love. If you were to give our youth advice on what it means in everyday life to live in love and grace, what would you say?
Please click on “Comments” below to share your thoughts and to read what others are saying. Come back often to continue the conversation!
Read: Question #20, p. 82-85, in Banned Questions about the Bible by Christian Piatt.
Scripture Passages: Genesis 6:5-7; Deuteronomy 7:1-2 and 20:16-18; Joshua 8 and 10; Exodus 21:12-27; Leviticus 24:10-23; Isaiah 11; Micah 6:8
We’ve seen violence erupting in the Middle East over a movie made by Coptic Christians in the U.S. that Muslims find offensive and blasphemous and most of us haven’t seen. Anti-US groups in the Middle East are taking advantage to fuel even more rage and violence while some in the US think we need to return a measured response for the deaths in the American Embassy. I don’t want to turn this into a political debate. However, people of faith struggle with the issue of how to respond to violence. With this struggle playing out before us, I’d like to explore whether the Bible justifies violence and retaliation (Question #20 in Banned Questions…) and how we reconcile Old Testament laws with Jesus’ teachings to turn the other cheek and love your enemies (Question #15, which we will discuss later this week).
Does God justify violence in the Bible? At the top I’ve linked to some scripture passages from Genesis, Deuteronomy, and Joshua that suggest it. In Genesis, God is fed up enough with the evil in humans to wipe out all but a handful and start over:
So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” [Genesis 6:7]
I’ve struggled more with the WHY behind the flood story than with the HOW it was possible. Sometimes we can let the animals on the ark distract us from the deeper question. Much later, after leading the Israelites into the Promised Land, God instructs them to completely destroy the inhabitants there to avoid being led astray:
In the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them… as the Lord your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God. [Deuteronomy 20:16-18]
Joshua even suggests that God participated in the violence:
There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel! [Joshua 10:14]
There are other stories of violence in the Bible. There’s not a whole lot of air-brushing or spin control with these stories either. Even some of the laws seem to call for violent responses to violent acts. The Exodus and Leviticus links above proscribe death for certain sins that range from murder to cursing your parents or blaspheming God.
I find it hard to reconcile that the God I’ve encountered in Jesus – a God of love, mercy, and grace – would condone these violent acts. Why would God, who so loved the world, command the Israelites to completely destroy some cities? Why those people? Were they beyond redemption? And, if so, are there some today who would be similarly beyond redemption?
The common thread in the three responses to this question in Banned Questions… is that the Bible does not justify violence or genocide. They believe that, while the Bible was inspired by God, God did not dictate it word for word but worked with fallible humans (much like us) to write the Bible. The result is a collection of books written by different people over thousands of years, each reflecting different perspectives. Brandon Gilvin recommends reading the Bible “with the knowledge that those who came before us struggled with the way to find God in every detail of their lives and histories and sometimes got it wrong.” [p. 83]
Some say that the God we see in the Old Testament seems to be vengeful while the God we see in the New Testament is loving. But did God’s nature change or did the perspectives of those who wrote the Bible change over time? We see signs of God’s love, mercy, and grace in the words of the prophets (such as the passages in Isaiah and Micah referenced above). And we see the full embodiment of God’s love for the world in Jesus. Maybe it took that long for humans to be ready to grasp God’s intent to transform creation through Jesus. Well, looking at the events in the world since Jesus walked on earth, maybe we’re still not ready to grasp it.
Later this week, we’ll explore how or if Jesus changed the Biblical perspective on violence and what that means to us today. But first I want to spend some time wrestling with these OT passages.
How do we make sense of these violent accounts? How do you resolve it with the loving God we see through Jesus? Do you believe what we read in those OT accounts reflects more the perspectives of the people who wrote them than the nature of God? Or do you believe that God’s nature has changed between OT times and Jesus’ time? If so, what do you see of God today? Is it loving or is there still justification for violent responses in some cases?
Please click on “Comments” below to share your thoughts and to read what others are saying. Come back often to continue the conversation!
Originally I planned to follow our discussion about Adam and Eve's children's spouses with one on the creation accounts in the Bible (there are several) and whether evolution truly conflicts with those stories (based on Question #17 in Banned Questions...). It would make a good follow-up to some of the discussion we've had on Adam and Eve this week.
With recent violent outbreaks resulting from the amateur movie that denigrates Mohammed and has upset Muslims across the world, I've also thought about exploring the questions on whether the Bible justifies violence (Question #20) and on how to reconcile an "eye for an eye" with "love your enemies" (Question #15).
I have notes on both topics so I could go with either one. Rather than rely on whatever mood I'm in when I wake up to write the post Saturday morning, I'd like to give you a chance to have a say.
Do you have a preference on which topic you'd like to see next? Do the creation stories and evolution conflict or how do we reconcile Old Testament teachings on violence and vengeance with Jesus' teachings on loving our enemies and turning the other cheek?
On a more general scale, what questions would you like to see us discuss here? Dave Retherford provided some good suggestions in the first post on this blog. You can see them in the comment section by clicking here.
Let me know in the comments below. Thanks!
Read: Question #2, p. 9-11, in Banned Questions about the Bible by Christian Piatt.
Scripture Passage: Genesis 2:4-25; 4:1-2, 17-26.
This is one of the first questions I remember asking my Sunday school teacher when I was in third or fourth grade. We read about the birth of Cain, Abel, and, later, Seth. Then, suddenly, spouses appear. Where did they come from? My teacher’s surprised look stuck with me more than her answer. I don't know if she didn't expect the question or had never considered it herself. I asked several other people and the best answer I recall was, “Maybe God created wives for them.” That’s not in the Bible, but it was probably better than some of the other possibilities.
Christian Piatt responded:
“Stories like these are challenging for those who take the Bible literally because they lead to some potentially creepy conclusions.” [p. 9]
Joshua Einsohn wrote:
“The Bible does not answer all the questions it raises. Rather than bending over backward to try to come up with a literal rationale, why not assume that these stories were meant to teach, instruct, and give comfort?” [p. 10]
Do you believe the story of Adam, Eve, and their children happened exactly as it is written in the Bible? If so, where do you think the spouses came from?
Some people say the story of Adam and Eve should be read as a parable about the beginning of life and not as a factual account. What do you think?
Does your faith depend on Adam and Eve being actual, physical human beings or on Noah’s flood covering the entire earth? Is every story in the Bible meant to be taken literally or could these accounts be parables?
How do you tell what passages in the Bible are parables and what are factual?
What other stories in the Bible do you find challenging to interpret literally? We may follow up with some of them here.
What questions come to your mind when you read the account of Adam and Eve or when you read the responses in Banned Questions…?
Please click on “Comments” below to share your thoughts and to read what others are saying. Come back often to continue the conversation!
In Banned Questions about the Bible, Christian Piatt describes having a Bible thrown at him for asking too many questions. I had some very patient, forgiving teachers and youth leaders growing up. Not that they were always comfortable with some of my questions, but they didn’t tell me to stop asking. However, later, I encountered some who not only weren’t comfortable with questions about God and faith, but were defensive to the point of being hostile. Responses like “God said it, I believe it, that settles it” or “You’re disagreeing with God” when I didn’t see things the same as they did didn’t convert me to their way of thinking. Instead, I quit coming to their gatherings and, after a while, drifted away from church for many years.
I read an article on Ministry Matters about creating A Safe Place to Doubt. It’s worth a read if you have time. A leading reason people leave the church is that they don’t feel their questions or doubts were welcomed. The author contends that churches should be the place where people can ask questions:
“Those of us inside the church have the responsibility to make a space where doubters can bring their questions safely into the sanctuary. Creating that space is easier said than done, of course. But as someone who left the church and returned, I know we have the power to affect this generation of doubters. And that power is less about answers than it is about tone, space and spirit.”
Not only will we wrestle with some difficult passages in the Bible, but we’ll explore questions about the Bible itself and about God. I want to create a forum where people can share their thoughts without fearing a less than hospitable reaction. Each of us brings a unique understanding of God, the Bible, and what it means to be a follower of Jesus. We all have an opportunity to grow when we share that with each other. That’s what I hope will come out of these discussions.
Even in the best blogs about faith, the comment section can sometimes erupt. People can be quite passionate about what they believe. When we talk about God or faith with others, we’ll likely encounter differences. How we handle our disagreements makes a big difference.
I’ve read a number of rules for comment etiquette on blogs. Some are as short as “Don’t be a jerk and don’t do anything illegal.” Others post a long set of rules of behavior and heavily moderate comments. While I’m more of a “don’t be a jerk” kind of moderator, I want to make sure that the discussion remains constructive and that people feel comfortable posting comments. So here are a few things to keep in mind:
“Love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…. Love your neighbor as yourself.” Matthew 22:37-38
“Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 12:34-35
Maybe you were expecting more. But if we begin with a foundation in love and seek to treat each other with love, other things fall into line. Keep things positive. It’s okay to be passionate about something, but don’t let that passion get in the way of courtesy and respect for others. We can debate different perspectives without attacking the person. I will offer reminders if it seems to me that the discussion is getting too heated. I will delete comments that I feel are not constructive or are mean-spirited. While I don’t expect it here, I will ban trolls – those who disrupt the conversation with inflammatory or off-topic comments intended to provoke emotional reactions. I’m not perfect, so if you feel that I missed something or that I’ve gotten carried away, please let me know.
Because we want a discussion, I leave you with Seven Rules of Engagement for discussing the Bible, offered by Rachel Held Evans:
1) I won't question your commitment to the Bible just because you interpret it differently than I do.
2) I won’t use the Bible as a proof-texting weapon of mass destruction.
3) I won’t accuse you of “picking and choosing” when we all employ some selectivity when interpreting and applying the Bible.
4) I will use the word “biblical” properly—as a descriptive adjective, not a prescriptive one.
5) I won’t use the words “plain” or “clear” when referring to an ancient collection of stories, poems, letters, laws, history, prophecy, and philosophy—all written in a language and culture very different from my own.
6) I will keep in mind that my interpretation of the Bible is only as inerrant as I am.
7) I will use the Bible as a conversation-starter, not a conversation-ender.
